Does This Law Degree Make My Ass Look Fat?

September 8, 2010 by  

Quick question: You’re a single guy, let’s say in your late twenties to mid-thirties, with a decent job, given the choice between the following two single women to date; which one do you choose?

Choice A: A real-world-hot 28-year-old receptionist on her fourth job in three years, who lives with two roommates in a fifth-floor walkup in some outer borough, aspires to someday have a job that gives her either free shoes or health insurance, and only sounds like an idiot when she speaks out loud.

Choice B: A real-world-hot 28-year-old BigLaw lawyer (I know, just go with me here) who paid off her school debt by herself in three years, lives alone in a doorman building in Manhattan, is funny and down-to-earth, and runs a small, successful side business selling artisanal cupcakes that she bakes in her spare time.

Clearly, you choose Choice A.   Why?  Because, if the status quo in my firm…and in my life…and in my friends’ lives…and in any bar from New York to L.A. is any indication, a law degree confers about as much romantic value to a single woman as a meth habit and a hidden penis.

Don’t believe me?   

Let’s replay a quick conversation I had a couple of Thursdays ago with my friend Stein, a graphic designer in his late twenties who I’d set up with a third-year finance associate at my firm who’s so pretty and fun that I still half-suspect that she’s not actually an associate, but really an actress posing as a lawyer for some kind of (horrifyingly sad) new reality show.   As soon as I asked Stein what he thought of her, he scrunched up his face in consideration.

“I mean, she’s cute,” he said, still scrunching. “Hot, even.”

“I know.”

“She was actually really funny and cool.”

“Told you.”

“It’s just that…”  He cocked his head to the side and started grimacing.  “It’s just that she seems…really together, you know?  I just…I don’t know.  I think we’re maybe in different places.”

And there it is.

Different places, indeed.  See, it used to be that lady lawyers took a hit in the dating world because the J.D. badge meant that you were probably too nerdy or “argumentative” or just a puffy, hideous troll.  But this new strain of rejection dispenses with such frivolity.  This time, the hotter you are, the less appealing you become.  This time, ladies, you got it wrong.  Again.  You’re sexy, funny and charming and worked like an animal to get into the best law schools and nab the highest paying jobs in the world’s most elite lawyer factories so you could be financially independent and could pursue a guy for love, not for his ability to support you, but…no dice.  Turns out, they like you better when you’re more of a disaster.  (But not to worry, according to the latest reports, if you can’t provide that full disaster experience for them, they’ll cheat on you with someone who will—so, you’re covered either way.)

Sure, a few guys—the smart, if not more Darwinian, types—realize that at its core, dating an ambitious, fun woman who can pay her bills (and theirs!) and who isn’t, say, a crack-whore, isn’t a bad thing.  They realize that maybe, just maybe, one of the upsides of dating a woman who’s more successful than they are is that, at the very least, they know that the only thing she wants from them is…them.

For the rest of you guys, though, what are you so afraid of?   That you won’t be able to take care of us?  That you’ll be emasculated? That we’ll think you’re a loser?   Tell you what, here’s when we’ll think you’re a loser:  when you’re a loser.   And if we’re interested in dating you, then you’re probably not a loser—at least not to us.  I mean, really, is it so impossible to believe that a cute, successful woman would be interested in a cute, not-as-successful man?  Are you really that insecure?

Apparently, yes.  So, for you guys out there, the ones who think that a lady J.D. isn’t worth your time because she’s just too successful, too intimidating, too together, let me clue you in on a little secret on behalf of the together-est of together women lawyers everywhere—though, be warned, it may titillate and/or confuse you.

We’re not really that together.

I hope you were sitting down for that one.  See, like most folks perceived as having tidy, charmed lives, we’re the same unhinged wrecks that you are; we just hide it more efficiently and have better accessories.   True, we have enough sense and ability to manage to get out of bed every morning and do something productive—or at least lucrative—with our time, but that doesn’t mean that we’re winning any gold medals in the Race to a Perfect Life.

If you still don’t believe me, you’re clearly not too familiar with the parade of horribles that is this blog.  If you were to meet me, your Legal Tease, at a party, you might think that I’m just the epitome of lawyerly togetherness.  What you wouldn’t see is that most of my non-existent spare time is spent rocking back and forth in a ball under my desk at work, praying for a time-machine.  Nor would you see that my most promising recent relationship basically amounted to rolling around on the floor of my office with a certified lunatic whose idea of courtship involved offering me a position as his mistress via drunk 11 a.m. voicemails made from the inside of his girlfriend’s coat closet.  And that’s just the low-hanging fruit.  Intimidated yet?

And I’m not alone—an unofficial survey of the hottest, most together-seeming women lawyers I know yields: a recent hush-hush hospitalization for a nervous breakdown, a second abortion, a serial mistress, bulimia, boob job number three, a foreclosed mortgage and a broken engagement.  Oh, and bedbugs.

So, take heed:  The next time you meet a graceful, shapely, six-figure-siren who has a white shoe pedigree and lights up a room with her sparkly, charming wit, instead of running in the other direction to your man-cave of insecurities (or more likely, to your unemployed hook-up buddy in Astoria), take a deep breath and realize that this untouchable legal goddess probably has IBS, cries herself to sleep at least once a week and wonders how much of this year’s bonus she should use to freeze her eggs.   In other words, go get her champ!   Trust me, you have nothing to lose.

An excerpt of this essay is also being published today on everyone’s favorite legal tabloid, Above the Law.  Make sure to check it out here!

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Comments

116 Responses to “Does This Law Degree Make My Ass Look Fat?”

  1. Anonymous on September 8th, 2010 4:39 am

    When someone gets dumped (or passed over), as a defense mechanism, they usually tell themselves they were dropped because the other person “couldn’t handle” their good qualities, or had “too much” of something good (e.g. you were too nice, too trusting, too loving, etc.). And most of the times, this is reinforced by the person doing the dumping, since, well, there’s no use pouring salt on a wound by telling the truth about why you’re not attracted to someone.

    But the truth is, you don’t get dumped for your good qualities. So if guys aren’t dating your lawyer friends, it’s not because they’re too put-together. IM(very)HO, female lawyers combine the emotional irrationality of women with the argumentative skills of a lawyer (at least when it comes to relationship issues; not saying women can’t be rational in the workplace). And training argument skills in a person who doesn’t ground their thinking in reason is like giving a gun to a blind person. Sure they can learn to fire a round, but without vision, they’re no more likely to hit their target and much more likely to cause collateral damage.

    So does this mean we guys “can’t handle” a “complex” woman? Of course not. We handle people just as complex throughout the day, usually quite successfully. It’s just… why bother? If you can get the same companionship and satisfaction with someone who doesn’t come with all the extra hassle, why not?

  2. Anonymous on September 8th, 2010 6:10 am

    Dude, as long as a woman’s good looking and will screw like a bunny, that is all that is important.

    Once you bring these these “complex” (a.k.a. educated and ugly) broads into the picture, you are setting yourself up for trouble.

    The extra buckaroos some of these dames may bring home for a few years (until they get pregnant) really isn’t worth much in the long term.

    Do the math. Go for the bimbos.

  3. elle on September 8th, 2010 9:38 am

    Anonymous @ 4.39: Efficient argument, but IM(very)HO, it sounds like you might have been burned by a female attorney at some point in your life and that’s what’s driving this anti-lawyer, borderline misogynistic rebuttal? Law school girlfriend? Some lawyer bitch who broke your heart or at least played games with it?

    If you’re deciding that you don’t want to date a female attorney because you just don’t like her because she’s argumentative or whatever, fine. But to decide that you don’t want to date a female attorney before you’ve even met her AND if she’s someone who is otherwise attractive and seems normal, that’s a problem, isn’t it?

    LT, am I missing the point??

  4. Anonymous on September 8th, 2010 11:11 am

    elle-

    I realize my argument is based on generalizations which it must necessarily be since, well, the whole article, except for one example, is about why guys (in general) don’t seem to want to date female lawyers (in general). Since there are plenty of happily married female lawyers, of course the generalization isn’t 100% valid.

    I guess my point was that people who train for a specific career, especially one as intense as the law, tend to have certain personality traits (whether they’re just selected for them, or whether they’re developed, doesn’t matter), and it’s very difficult to *not* bring those traits home when dealing with your non-work life. Thus we have surgeons who have god complexes at home, generals who dress their kids in cammo and speak to them in milspec, MBAs who do a mental cost-benefit analysis on a potential girlfriend, and lawyers who view relationship disputes as courtroom battles (have I covered the whole readership yet? :-) .

    It’s hard to turn that off when you come home. And when you combine that with the usual intense emotions associated with a relationship, well… it can be a deadly combination for all involved.

    As for the rest of your post, I hope you, as a presumed lawyer, realize my personal background has nothing to do with the validity of my argument ;-)

  5. anony on September 8th, 2010 12:58 pm

    First commenter: “And training argument skills in a person who doesn’t ground their thinking in reason is like giving a gun to a blind person. ”

    So, giving a woman a law degree is like giving a gun to a blind person?

    Do you beat your mom and/or drown small puppies in your spare time, too?

    Wow. Nice argument, buddy.

  6. BL1Y on September 8th, 2010 1:26 pm

    “probably has IBS, cries herself to sleep at least once a week and wonders how much of this year’s bonus she should use to freeze her eggs”

    Maybe I missed something in your post, but why would I want to date this person?

  7. Anonymous on September 8th, 2010 1:38 pm

    If a girl acts like she is god’s gift to the world, it’s unattractive and unappealing, and I personally never give such a girl the attention she so craves. Insert the words “who works in biglaw” after the word “girl” each time it appears in the last sentence. Almost all girls who work in biglaw act like they are god’s gift to the world. Got it. The fact that a girl cries herself to sleep at night is irrelevant.

  8. Rain Street on September 8th, 2010 1:45 pm

    I liked it, Legal Tease, but if we’re going to deal in generalizations and false dichotomies, I think it’s fair to point out that this entry could have been written in reverse. Using the “why do women always date assholes?” meme, we get this:

    Let’s say you’re a single girl, in your late twenties to mid thirties, with a decent job. Given the choice of the following two men to date, which do you choose?

    CHOICE A: A real-world-hot bartender who’s on his fourth job in three years (got fired from his last job as a bouncer), makes most of his income in tips, rides a motorcycle, plays guitar in a horrible cover band, and treats every woman he knows with misogynistic contempt; or

    CHOICE B: a real-world-hot BigLaw lawyer who paid off his student loans in three years, lives in a nice apartment, is on great terms with his family and even some of his ex-girlfriends, is an all-around decent guy by most accounts and volunteers with a group that helps disadvantaged children in his spare time?

    Clearly, you choose Choice A. Why? Because Choice B is boring and stable, and Choice A is Mysterious and Alluring and even though no other woman has been able to change him, I know I can!

    (Sorry Tease; I love your stuff. Just not sure I buy this one.)

  9. DC Fed JD on September 8th, 2010 1:51 pm

    I’m coming to NY for the Pavement shows…maybe you can set me up with that third year. I’m an 07 grad from a top 50 school…I’ve got taste (see Pavement shows), financially under control, and not terribly shabby to look at
    (sure I need a haircut)…

    drinks at Fatty Cue?

  10. Translator on September 8th, 2010 2:00 pm

    “[W]e’re maybe in different places” = the chick from finance is 28, her clock is ticking, she is ready to settle down, the dude sensed it and wants no part of it.

  11. skeptymcskeptical on September 8th, 2010 3:31 pm

    @ Rain Street, Can I have choice B please? biases and all, not all women like bad guys. But the majority of men like unstable, insecure, girls. point and case.

  12. BL1Y on September 8th, 2010 3:39 pm

    Rain Street: You’re only half right. The girl will date B and get lots of free meals, maybe a couple gifts, and keep him as a marriage backup. She’ll have sex with A.

  13. LG on September 8th, 2010 4:07 pm

    @ Rain Street:

    In real life – in other words, at my BigLaw office – Choice “B” is not available. All of the male associates are either married (or at least engaged) or gay. There are no single, straight male associates. Same at my former firm, also BigLaw. So, nice try.

  14. Jamie on September 8th, 2010 5:21 pm

    It isn’t news that some men are intimidated by successful, very bright, very attractive women, however, not all men are. Some men are looking for equals. Those are the men that female attorneys should focus on. The other men are an utter waste of time for a woman who has a lot going for her.

    As for the men who aren’t looking for the “hassle” of having an intelligent conversation with their significant other, I pity you. You are destined for a life of mind-numbing boredom. That’s a huge price to pay for the privilege of feeling superior to your mate.

    As for the men who aren’t looking to have any sort of conversation with the women whom they bed, why not pay for your sex? That way, you don’t have to bother with dinner conversation and you know what you’re getting because you’ll get whatever you’re willing to pay for.

    None of this is all that complicated if people would only be honest with others and, more importantly, themselves.

  15. Anonymous on September 8th, 2010 6:41 pm

    Let’s be honest. If you have ever gone out on a dinner date, let the man pay and then put out later that night, you should know that the man more likely than not expected you to put out because he paid for dinner. Don’t be naive.

  16. Jack on September 8th, 2010 7:11 pm

    Legal tease, I like your blog but a few issues:

    (1) Your friend is not that hot. Your friend is not that fun. All girls call their friends hot and fun and smart, but they don’t see things objectively. If she is that hot and fun, he’d date her, regardless of how much she makes.

    (2) I’m in law school. Female law students and lawyers do not live in a vacuum. Moreover, you do not compete with secretaries in the dating scene (the secretaries you so condescendingly mocked). You compete with nurses, teachers, doctors, finance chicks, etc. ALL of these types of women, on AVERAGE, have better personalities than female lawyers. And it isn’t close. Girls in my law school, especially the mediocre ones, think they’re god’s gift to the world. They combine arrogance with typical female vapidity. When I meet non-law women the difference in personality is truly amazing. Being law school hot means nothing when I can find a chick in advertising who’s both hotter and nicer.

    (3) Intelligence is good. Men who don’t want to date female lawyers are not “insecure”, they are rational. Lawyers aren’t the only intelligent women. And lawyers are trashier than other intelligent women.

    “And I’m not alone—an unofficial survey of the hottest, most together-seeming women lawyers I know yields: a recent hush-hush hospitalization for a nervous breakdown, a second abortion, a serial mistress, bulimia, boob job number three, a foreclosed mortgage and a broken engagement. Oh, and bedbugs.”

    Why the fuck would I want to date someone with these issues, again?

  17. For Real on September 8th, 2010 7:15 pm

    women be shopping…

  18. Joe on September 8th, 2010 7:40 pm

    We don’t want to date women lawyers because they are not nice. Period. I don’t want to come home to a female lawyer who cops an attitude, and comes to the conclusion that I am insecure when i get tired of her running her trap about how great she is or how stupid someone else is.

    We’re not insecure. You’re angry because we don’t want to date you. And you call it insecurity because you can’t handle the reality that you are being rejected. Sorry ladies. It’s just plain old rejection.

    Sorry to be so rude, but its true.

  19. Anonymous on September 8th, 2010 8:20 pm

    anony 12:58–
    Nothing wrong with women being lawyers; like I said they can be just as good as anyone in the workplace. But absolutely they shouldn’t apply their legal methods at home (neither should male lawyers, BTW). Just like surgeons who need to have unshakeable confidence in their skills in the O.R. shouldn’t bring that arrogance home, generals who bark orders and expect to be immediately followed shouldn’t bring that expectation home, etc. Unfortunately, most people can’t separate their work and home personas that cleanly.

    Jamie –
    I assume your pity was aimed at me. Please note in my comment I didn’t once mention intelligence as an undesirable trait. There’s a big difference between being intelligent and being a good debater. You can have one without the other.

    And again, it has nothing to do with being intimidated. Most people in high-level professional careers work/compete/interact/etc with intelligent, bright, attractive people day in and day out, usually very successfully or they wouldn’t last in their career. If a guy passes over an i/b/a woman, it’s soothing to her ego to assume it’s because he was intimidated by her good qualities, but that’s usually not the actual reason…

  20. Anonymous on September 9th, 2010 8:33 am

    Women smell fear, men smell expectations … and flee. Men instinctively know the whole “I don’t care if you’re less successful than me cuz I’m so cool and laid back’” schtick, genuine though it may be at the dating stage, will go right out the fucking window in a few years when it’s time for kids and a real apartment and your slacker-ass is making 30k as a bike messenger and no she can’t quit or go part time. Let’s see who’s laid back and cool now, and who is consumed with bitterness and fire-breathing rage. Your 28 year-old friend needs to look ahead a few years and be realistic about what she is really going to expect from her man, then she’ll realize she should only be dating men five years older with double her salary.

  21. fss on September 9th, 2010 2:00 pm

    Oh dear Lord in heaven. Really? Why, Instapundit, why?

    OK – why is this a blog entry? You’re having trouble dating, so it must be the fault of all men? And you want validation, so you post this to the world (and got Instalanche’d) so people would tell you that OF COURSE it’s all men’s fault. Writing to Ann Landers or Dear Prudance or whatever would be too sad, and not provide all the individual attention you wanted? And they would tell you the obvious: to meet more guys to increase the odds of finding someone who loves all your qualities you need “to get out there” and go to church, or do charity work, or volunteer, or whatever. There’s some guy somewhere who would find you lovely in every way.

    “Does this law degree make my ass look fat?” No, so if it’s fat you should go to the gym. There are guys there, too…

  22. Anonymous on September 9th, 2010 2:11 pm

    He’s just not that into you.

  23. Tim McDonald on September 9th, 2010 2:19 pm

    Perhaps….just perhaps…..while you were spending your early 20′s getting a good education, and improving your career prospects, some women … let us say a 19 year old high school graduate, from a poor family, working in a factory, runs across a 19 year old college student, from a poor family, in say a bowling alley. And they flirt, and hit it off, and lo and behold they get married and she works like a dog, raising the kids and helping with the finances until he finally manages to graduate with no help from parents or anyone else but his wife, and then they spend the next 32 years together……..

    But that guy is all taken up by the time you get around to looking. So you have cut your “high quality” prospects by a rather large amount, because the best ones STAY taken after they get took. And the ones who have a hard time with committment….well, they are all still out there.

  24. Harold on September 9th, 2010 2:29 pm

    The dudes on this site have it right. Women lawyers seem to think they are all Meghan Fox or something. In fact they are not that hot at all, even though their daddies told them they were.

    In point of fact, a 28 year old female lawyer, unmarried is pretty close to the end of the line in the fertility department, especially if she is an emotional / neurotic trainwreck.

    I would not want such a woman rearing my kid. That doesn’t mean I would not hump the daylights out of her, but it does would not lead to the marriage vows.

    These damn legally trained women are just too whiny, too demanding, too pushy, and frankly, not that hot.

    As a guy, I want a woman who knows when to be a tiger and when to keep her trap shut. I don’t want to have to spar with my wife after a long day at the office.

    I want a cute sex kitten anxious to please me when I come home. Is there anything wrong with that? I didn’t think so.

    Now find me a hot, subservient kitten willing to take care of my kids and make me dinner, then bang 6 times a week, and I’ll sign up for that. I do not want to sign up for some whiny demanding beeotch with a law degree who thinks she is hot. Trust me, she’s not.

  25. Travis McGee on September 9th, 2010 2:46 pm

    The truth, I think, is fairly simple. Guys feel that a woman who has it all-together will never be able to respect them, deep down, and that she will eventually want to trade up.

  26. Anon on September 9th, 2010 3:08 pm

    Why do female lawyers and law students have such a hard time dating down? I understand that they usually want someone 1-3 years older, but oftentimes they want someone who makes as much or more than them or has an equally prestigious job.. Maybe they are concerned with their friends thinking they are going slumming or they have fantasies about dating big time lawyers, bankers or doctors? Unfortunately those men don’t have a problem with dating less financially secure women and there is a numbers imbalance.

  27. hdgreene on September 9th, 2010 3:26 pm

    About 25 years ago I was talking to a couple of friends and said, “A Surgeon can marry a nurse as long as the Surgeon is a man and the nurse is a woman.” I think what has changed in the intervening years is that the nurse no longer has to be a woman, at least in some states. Anyways, my friends went to grad school and a few years later one who’d become a lawyer reminded me of what I said and told me I was right.

    What is IBS? I assume it is not sexually transmitted and is different from just plain BS. Yes, I could look it up but I have not confessed ignorance on any subject lately and I try to confess ignorance at least once a week. I think it makes me more approachable. You see, I tend to come off as a know-it-all. But this comment is not about me.

  28. T. D. Garrett on September 9th, 2010 3:43 pm

    Until I see a pic, can the hot crap. I don’t need a basket case regardless of the amount she hauls in bitching her way through a court case. Give me a woman that would chuck the legal brief for an all day ride in country slingin mud and downing a beer. You can just bat your eyelashes through the trial to make up for blowin the case off. I don’t feel emasculated because you bring in 6 figures taking advantage of some guy fighting a false domestic violence claim or suing the crap out of some business owner because a customer was stupid enough to to purposely go running down the handicapped ramp in an ice storm. Women are nut cases based on the X side of the helix and it doesn’t matter if ass looks fat or not (although meat on the seat is more desirable).

  29. AL in CA on September 9th, 2010 4:12 pm

    I have three degrees, and I currently work in the Accounting field. My wife barely finished high school, so our conversations at home never involve my work or anything related to Finance. Sometimes I imagine whether I would have more stimulating conversations at home if I married a college graduate.

    But reading some of the comments here makes me want to count my blessings that my wife married me. I just got the urge to call her now.

  30. Tv Addict on September 9th, 2010 4:25 pm

    If Television has taught me anything, it’s that female lawyers are all uber-hot, brilliant, have really long sexy legs, lots of personal problems, fuck like bunnies, and make very poor personal choices.

    I’ll stay on the couch, thanks.

  31. nyght on September 9th, 2010 5:29 pm

    Interesting article. Not sure I understand or relate to all the comments, though…

    Personally, I don’t care at all about what the person does or how much they make. If I were more of a realist, perhaps I would, but I’ve always been something of a dreamer, and I’m looking for more… I guess spiritual things? Not religious, really…

    I’ve been both blessed and cursed in love. Blessed in that I did once find what I was looking for. Cursed in that the woman I loved was taken by cancer at the age of 36 (And I’m still getting over that…).

    She was older than I was (by 5 years), made more money, and had done more in general than I had (she wasn’t a lawyer, though) at the time we met. It didn’t really start off fast, and it certainly wasn’t like lightning, but I knew the moment I met her that there, in front of me, was someone that I could always be myself with. Warts, quirks, silliness and all. Someone who would never judge me. In short, someone with whom I was absolutely comfortable. Someone I “got”, and who “got” me.

    It took me a little while to realize that I was falling in love with her, but I eventually did, and mustered the courage to really ask her out as something more than a friend.

    I guess what I’m getting at is this. When we were together, it was obvious we were together in the way we moved and carried ourselves. Time didn’t matter. Nothing mattered except being there with her and basking in every moment I had with her (Even before she was diagnosed). 9 times out of 10, I wasn’t even aware of whom else was around. It always amazed her that I didn’t even look at other women when we were out, but truth is, I didn’t care about them. I was there with her.

    Not that I am at all ready to get back into the dating game (it’s not been 5 months since her funeral), but when I do, that is what I will be looking for. And I don’t care where it comes from. Lawyer (My sister is training up to be one even now!), Judge, Chef, Designer… None of that matters to me. Nor how much money she makes (although I wouldn’t be at all opposed to having her make 6 figures! =D).

  32. Around a few blocks on September 9th, 2010 6:56 pm

    Some men are terrified of intelligent, successful women.

    Some women lawyers are tough as nails, sharp as tacks and have no sex appeal at all.

    It really is silly to generalize.

    However, the woman who gets asked out again is smart enough to understand that a date is about two people. Listening to someone talk about their billable hours or the intricacies of a wrongful dismissal action is fun for about five minutes. So smart people actually cultivate other interests.

    For a while in my thirties I dated a woman for several months without really realizing that she was in practice. She was funny, vivacious, a brilliant cook and beautifully read. She didn’t talk about work and neither did I. I was more than a little sad when it didn’t work out – her call – but it had absolutely nothing to do with her being a lawyer.

    One of biglaw’s greatest drawbacks is that the demands of the job can easily overwhelm all but the wound up mouse lawyer side. If a guy wants a lawyer he’ll hire one. (Similarly, if a guy wants a sex kitten he’ll hire one of those – way better ROI than marrying one.)

  33. R. on September 9th, 2010 7:40 pm

    This is so simple I can’t believe you don’t get it.

    “Bimbo” and I date. We fall in love. We marry. I support us both. Occasionally we argue and get angry, as almost all couples do. Unlikely we divorce, though, because she depends on me financially and I depend on her emotionally. Unfair? Very likely. Oppressive? Arguably. Oddly enough, survey evidence predicts we will likely both be happy.

    Instead, you and I date. We fall in love. We marry. Occasionally we argue and get angry. Very likely we divorce–not only are we mad at each other, but also my dream job is in town X, yours is in town Y, or whatever. Why shouldn’t you divorce me? You need me like a fish needs a bicycle. I lose my kids! I lose my kids! To add insult to injury I have to make expensive payments for years. And even if that doesn’t actually happen, I have to fear it every time we argue.

    What’s not to love? Who wouldn’t want to live that life?

    It’s not your beautiful mind that’s off-putting: it’s your hard-won independence. Marriage is interdependence or it’s just filler between divorces.

    I can think of no even approximately fair way out of this trap. Which is too bad, because I really like smart, accomplished women.

  34. lil mike on September 9th, 2010 8:10 pm

    Surprisingly, I think most of the guys comments here have it about right. Women seem to place a great deal more importance on their societial status (lawyer vs secretary) in the dating market than men do. Women seem to think that because a lawyer or professional would make a man more datable to them, that guys should feel the same way.

    Although I love an intelligent woman and witty repartee, being just a nice person would rate quite a bit higher than that self described intelligence and a “high status” job.

  35. Ancient Anthropologist on September 9th, 2010 8:18 pm

    I retired from BigLaw a couple of years ago.

    My three adult daughters have graduate degrees and professional licenses. All are married to A+ guys.

    For the last fifteen years I’ve been interviewing new university graduate males regarding “marriage, dating and sex” as a informal contemporary anthro study of how university educated males are adapting to changing gender roles.

    My daughters have several unmarried, over 30, bright, intelligent, well employed, female lawyer friends as well as several new female MD friends.

    Beginning with approximately the class of 1999 in general there was a change in university graduate male dating and marriage behavior.

    Legal Tease and her very bright friends are, in general, missing the obvious. University educated men, especially those with graduate degrees, in addition to the marriage attrition problem noted in the comments, are not looking for a paycheck; a great career has no value whatsoever to the guys; nor paying more than half the bills; nor a fancy law school education; being verbally highly skilled doesn’t have value, nor a license to practice law. Further, showing off $500 Gucci open toe shoes, or cleavage, or a shapely ass (although nice) has little appeal to most guys out on a serious date today.

    In general what university educated men are looking for is a “mom”. Not just a wife, a mom. If a bright well educated woman can’t duplicate the way a “mom” acts, what moms say, and appears visually, she’s out. A “career women”– a term that’s not a complement. Since roughly 1999 men seriously interested in a wife (not a relationship–strictly a female term) normally has a specifications list that includes children, how many, when children are to be planned, religion, how “jobs” are secondary to family, and other specs. Further, the men do math. One year of dating with background check, one year for child #1, another year for #2, and 6 years of dad working his ass off while professional mom is at home or working less, then Professional mom goes back to a job. These are a general run list of what professional women should anticipate before the first date.

    Another fact to mention is generally it is a mistake for professional women to own their own home, condo, or NY apartment. Its like a sign that says “husband not needed here”. Most educated men want a partnership, and are not interested in moving into wife’s home. Buy the family home together with both putting money into the purchase, partners do that.

    According to the 26 recent single male graduates I’ve interviewed since 1999 there is a significant shortage of qualified moms. This includes receptionists who have had five jobs in the last 4 years. However, there is a vast oversupply of attractive “career women”, to use the term I hear the guys use most often. As one Boston U. computer science MS said, “so what if she’s attractive and has a great income, they’re a dime a dozen.”

    As my youngest daughter once said to me, “If they’re really like this I’m going to puke, and they can go to hell!!” Yeah, “they” really are like this.

    Career women can generally expect to date off the “D” list. If they can act like, look like, and talk like a mom, its the fast track to an A+ guy. By age 28 the current ratio of single professional women, who want to date and marry university educated men, is about 7:1.

    I’ve noted that recent female MD graduates I’ve talked to have fewer problems finding professional mates, mainly because they seem to relish the mom role, and don’t have a problem seeing their medical role as having “job” like their professional husbands have a “job”, not a career.

    BigLaw single ladies need to study moms.

    Profess

  36. Melissa on September 9th, 2010 8:25 pm

    I love this blog, but I agree with a lot of the previous posters that I do think there’s some overgeneralizing going on here.

    I was originally in advertising and decided to go into law instead. I think for guys who I know who are relatively successful (e.g. have some sort of clear career path, goals, etc.), my choice in career path had very little effect on how they perceived me — in fact, I think for a lot of them it upped their interest in me. This includes some guys who are and will be making less than me, but they’re guys with good, stable jobs. They seemed to think of it as a plus, and I think a lot of them feel like they need to up their game to impress me, which is great for me.

    For guys who are complete messes (e.g. no idea what they want, immature players, no career goals, dead-end jobs), it definitely limits how interested they are in me. I’ve overcome it with some guys who I’ve genuinely hit it off with, but for the most part I do think my choice in career makes it less likely this kind of guy will want to expend his energy trying to get with me. I’ve definitely seen the “oh, nevermind” look when I’ve mentioned what I do to this kind of guy. Which I’m fine with actually, because I really have no interest in guys like this anyway.

    So yeah, I think it’s true to some extent, but I think for any guy worth dating, I don’t think the presence of a law degree is a deterrent. However, I do think the presence of certain traits that are relatively more frequently found in women in law (lack of outside interests, being too serious, not spending time on their appearance, being just…mean, etc.) can lead to the effect where it seems like a greater proportion of your female Biglaw friends may be single. I agree with the commenter that said that it’s entirely possible that the guy you were talking to probably was trying to be nice and not insult your friend.

    By the way, in defense of women, irrationality is not a women thing, it’s a people thing. Men are irrational in their own ways — they insist on doing stupid things once they’ve made up their mind even when it no longer makes sense, financially, time-wise and is completely inconvenient — they’re completely irrational sometimes. Women are irrational in other ways, but that’s people, you just roll with it. It does not mean that women are irrational and that men are rational — that’s completely ridiculous.

  37. Gordon on September 9th, 2010 11:07 pm

    Well, all other things being equal, I can’t see why there would be a problem. I’m sure there are some stereotypes at work; indeed, there are several on display in this comments section.

    Some of it is, no doubt, due to simple impedance mismatch: different worlds -> different perspectives -> different perceptions. In other words, one person’s “has it together” can easily be another person’s “control freak”, and so on. To be successful, both parties must be able to see things from the other’s perspective (as much as possible).

    Even then, there’s no guarantee that any particular pairing will work out. Dating is a process of meeting and evaluating potential partners; it should be expected that most will not work out — after all, once we meet the right person, we stop dating!

    Don’t look at a date not working out as a failure; it’s not. You were successful in determining whether or not you were [potentially] right for each other. Mission accomplished!

    Gordon.

  38. Gordon on September 9th, 2010 11:15 pm

    @Melissa,

    Agree with you re: rationality. I think rationality is often more a goal than an achievement; people often tend to rationalize more than they reason — men and women alike. We just have different rituals we use in the process.

    Also your point about “being just…mean” stands out. Being mean within a relationship, nascent or established, is like pouring acid on the other’s heart. It’s one of the most damaging things one can do, because each incident can seem so small and insignificant a thing while the cumulative damage accrues under the surface.

    Gordon.

  39. Jack on September 10th, 2010 1:41 am

    Melissa, you’re the kind of lawyer I’d date.

  40. bandit on September 10th, 2010 7:32 am

    This is like a corny TV sitcom – maybe that’s the part guys don’t like?

  41. Harold on September 10th, 2010 7:35 am

    I think the guy (@ Ancient Anthropoligist), who was involved in the sociology study with the 30 year old daughters is right on.

    Men work hard. They want a spouse that will support them, not spar with them.

    Why do I want to come home to some shrew with aging ova, who is combatitive, or so self absorbed as to not be interested in what I, as the man, wants?

    In the long run, I also think men want the same type of support that they once had with their moms, who would always be in their corner against the world?

    That is why these legal “career girls” just don’t cut it. We want attractive women who will put a band=aid on our cuts, coddle and care for us, not just instruct us on how do it ourselves.

    That’s why getting it on with a sexually charged woman who is not so self absorbed will be world’s better than some career – driven she-devil awyer who employs a billable egg-timer for nearly of her daily activities.

  42. sadieK on September 10th, 2010 12:09 pm

    I just read this on Jezebel. I am an over educated, professional woman in NYC. I have been told that I am quite attractive. I have never been attracted to ambitious, career minded, go getting types. I am married to a laid back, hippie type guy who can make me relax, laugh, and will do his share of the housework and childcare (eventually) around the house. The career dudes I’ve met have been stressed, status and consumption observed, party a lot, and quite simply, boring and politically conservative.
    I am not saying that every dude out there who is career minded and ambitious wants someone who approaches their career differently, but if I were a stressed out trader, banker, engineer, lawyer, then maybe I’d like a woman who didn’t just want to talk about her career and work stresses. Some people like being in “power couples”, but if both partners devote a lot of time in careers, then relationships and family life suffers. It’s a choice, and it’s a valid one.
    The author sounds bitter, but if this was written from the perspective of a dude (“I have an advanced degree! I work hard. How come the ladies aren’t all over me”) I think the silliness would be obvious.

  43. ailetha on September 10th, 2010 12:52 pm

    LOL i had to message my husband and tell him thanks for being normal. HAHA i have no question whatsoever about why a lot of you are not married. Ah, i am SO GLAD my husband is who he is, holy cow!

    Ancient Anthro, your comments smack of co-dependency, particularly the comment “Another fact to mention is generally it is a mistake for professional women to own their own home, condo, or NY apartment. Its like a sign that says ‘husband not needed here’.”

    So, Ancient Anthro and Harold, you’re basically saying you want to have sex with your mom. Well, most people aren’t into that and i’m pretty sure it’s technically illegal.

    if i had to act like a mom to my husband, i’d probably have shot myself in the head already. GROSS. i want my equal, not my superior, not my inferior, and he doesn’t need to be like me. (in fact, we are almost complete opposites.) But i also don’t want some sniffling man-child that i need to put diapers on and hand him his lunch on the way out with his turtles lunchbox. Nor would i want someone to do that to me.

    By the way, co-dependency is NOT a healthy personality trait.

    Just be yourself and stop trying to generalize. If you want to have sex with your mom, i’m sure you will eventually find someone who wants their husband to be like their dad and you guys will be matched in heaven.

  44. Annelise on September 10th, 2010 1:17 pm

    I come to this conversation as a real-world attractive-enough 24-year-old administrative assistant on my eighth job in three years (retail while looking for admin work), who lives with two roommates in a duplex in some outer neighborhood of SF, aspired to someday have a job that would give me health insurance (found one), and I probably sound like an idiot to some people sometimes.

    While I understand the frustration of being passed over (it happens to receptionists, too!) and I can see how this might not be meant as a condescending statement about support staff in general, I found it difficult to have any sympathy for your plight. Snarking on support staff is just as unacceptable as snarking on lawyers. Please knock it off.

  45. JustaDude on September 10th, 2010 3:26 pm

    I think there are several things at work that might lead to something like what you are talking about.

    The two choices presented A and B, the person described in A sounded like…they’d be more fun. The whole fully responsible adult professional type thing is great on one level but it is awfully boring. Add in the fact that the female soon to be lawyers I know at my law school, while decent people and all, tend not to fit into my preferred personality type. For me the situation is that I like women to complement my strengths. I have it all relatively together, I am the “responsible type” etc. I don’t need my significant other to be that too. I need a woman who will remind me when not to be responsible, when not to be all “lawyery’, when to cut loose. Now, certainly finding out a woman has a JD doesnt turn me off, but generally speaking most, due to the exact traits that lead them to be successful attorneys, simply aren’t what I need.

    I think there is a general “opposites attract” principal at work. I am an ambitious, career minded, somewhat coldly rational and logical person. I want my girlfriend/whatever appropriate term to be…not that. If I wanted to date me, I’d stay home. Clearly this isnt just a male attitude, as I point to SadieK above to show a woman with precisely the same position. She is career minded, traditionally successful etc, and is with a “laid back, hippie type”. It may just be that successful, powerful, etc. women tend to be better fits for such laid back men and not the less laid back types.

    ailetha: could you be any more judgmental if you tried? Some people were sharing their views and were commenting on how things are generally perceived. Now I do agree with the poster you quoted, a woman who owns her own apt. co-op. house etc. and is living alone does tend to send up the red flag of “not looking for a real, serious relationship”. Now renting and living alone is fine on this but I think this works both ways. If you have invested your money into owning your own living space, chances are you are planning on staying there for a while. Plus ownership means that whenever eventually the decision to move in happens things are far more complicated than if both of the singles were renters going into the relationship. I’m not starting a relationship if it doesnt seem like its not going to go anywhere and the default perception is that if you have made a long term investment in housing you aren’t planning on moving which means you arent planning on moving into some shared place with me.

  46. Willa on September 10th, 2010 3:30 pm

    Interesting. I’m 27, an attorney, female, and have never had a problem dating and currently have a boyfriend who proposes every other week. Seriously. What gives here?

    I get the whole ball-buster thing, and that’s an issue many women have to deal with. I also get that many mask insecurities with shrill behaviours that are though to swallow.

    But to go from there to saying that it is a mistake for a female to own her own apartment (I’m apalled Profess) because males won’t see her as a possible partner…Jeeeeez. I think I stepped into a time-machine.

    Yes, usually, if a women doesn’t get a date its probably not because of her career path (unless she works in the sex-industry, to be sure). That is no reason to group us all together in such a degrading manner. I’m really surprised at the level of dislike expressed here towards female attorneys, and professional women in general.

    I am happy to know several biglaw women who are not only succesful, but also good mothers and wives, great friends, and guy magnets all-around.

    So, to Sweet Justice AND the commenters, the stereotypes are wrong–both ways. It’s just a little unbelievable the extreme positions that both sides adopted.

  47. Carol on September 10th, 2010 3:51 pm

    Sweet Hot Justice, believe me when I say that I usually agree with your perspective. But it seems you may be missing the point here.

    I’m thinking of a beautiful friend I have who works in Biglaw, whom I absolutely adore. She’s funny, shes sweet, witty, and she even used to model for goodness’ sakes.

    She’s also batshit insane.

    I say this with the utmost love for her. I, as her friend, think she’s awesome, and have a great time with her. But I know it would take a very special sort of guy ( a saint with infinite patience who reads minds) to date her long-term. She’s neurotic, constantly breaks down in tears because of her insecurities, etc. Because her job is so stressful, these qualities come to the surface quite often. Possibly before guys get a chance to see how cool she is underneath all that, or too soon after they’ve gotten to know her. No guy in his right mind is going to stick around a messy neurotic woman, because she’s pretty and makes $, just to see if there’s someone nicer underneath.

    Just saying. You know how you say there’s lawyer hot and real-world hot? There’s also lawyer-cool, and real-world cool. You may think your friend is a catch, but you’re an attorney. You’re used to evil lawyers. You may not be able to realize it, but perhaps your beautiful friend gives off a vibe that makes guys run for the hills, which has nothing to do with working in law.

    And btw, I know you didn’t mean it so, but here goes anyway: I have not had an abortion, am not a mistress (nor have I ever been), no food issues, no bankruptcies or foreclosures, no cosmetic surgeries, no hospitalizations or mental breakdowns.

    I have a great deal of male friends I grew up with, and I promise you that those are not the kind of qualities in woman they are looking for. Actually, THAT’S PROBABLY WHY BIGLAW WOMEN HAVE TROUBLE WITH MEN.

  48. JO on September 10th, 2010 3:54 pm

    So….I work in a law office.

    And I am not an attorney.

    Does that make me the flake you described as “Choice A”?

    Sweetie, let me set you straight….”Choice A” spends plenty of time alone, too. And it’s not your job that is scaring off the normal guys, it’s the ATTITUDE.

  49. Carol on September 10th, 2010 3:58 pm

    One more thing people: What the heel is this sh@! about owning a place?? If ya woman finds someone she likes and wants to move in with him, SHE SELLS. OR RENTS. Or, (gasp!), if she can’t do either, if he really likes her, HE’LL MOVE IN WITH HER! My goodness, is it possible? For a MAN, to move into a place a WOMAN bought? The absurdity!

    JustaDude:

    Get a life.

  50. Iconoclassicist on September 10th, 2010 4:24 pm

    These guys are stupid. I could use a sugar momma Big Law attorney to help me out with these student loans and my public interest gig. You can vent about your crazy coworkers and I can vent about my crazy clients and then we can go freeze our reproductive material together.

  51. Frank on September 10th, 2010 4:38 pm

    Yo, Iconoclassist:

    Get real.

    Unless you look like Brad Pit, no self respecting chick Big Law attorney is going to let you bone her and also pay off your student loans for you.

    And since you are looking for someone to pay off your loans, you probably look more like Peach Pit.

    BTW, you’re not missing much.

  52. Mike Triforce on September 10th, 2010 4:44 pm

    Mike Triforce here. Hold the applause.

    I could tear you apart like I did on the ATL comment thread but I have decided to do something nice because you are promiscious and I like that.

    You have a man’s job, so it’s time to start acting like one. First, let me say that nobody is intimidated by your resume. People, guys especially, either don’t care or assumed you screwed your way to the top. Next, you need to stop looking for a relationship and start looking for sex. There are many personal trainers, musicians and if you feel like slumming attractive bartenders and humanities grad students you could be sleeping with. Some of these chumps will even bring you flowers and make the bed in the morning (though I recommend you enforce a strict 5 AM rule and send their asses packing before the sunrises).

    If you REALLY want to get married and you REALLY believe the shit you just wrote then well, I feel sorry for you, but again because I am being nice here’s another helpful hint. Find a guy who’s in his late thirties, already has kids and has been cleaned out by wife no. #1 who was a secretary, teacher, waitress, prostitute or some other form of gold digger.

    You’re welcome.

  53. Dustin Aaron Sanchez on September 10th, 2010 5:23 pm

    Now that’s just jacked up. Why is it that I can only have A or B? You ARE a lawyer. I’ll take both and see what happens.

  54. Iconoclassicist on September 10th, 2010 5:49 pm

    That’s classicist, Frank, not classist. I love women of all classes and as a popularis I am very much a supporter of the poors. And why don’t you let me be the judge of what I’m missing.

  55. Rock God on September 11th, 2010 1:20 am

    yea you read the name right

  56. Sophie on September 11th, 2010 1:25 pm

    I can’t help but notice that a lot of these comments are from men. I am a 34 year old female attorney in the oil and gas industry. Never been married. I was engaged to a man with an mba and who made a six figure income. Prior to us starting our dating relationship, I had told him that I was applying to law school. He stood by and watched as I studied for the LSAT. When I got my law school acceptance letter, he was less than thrilled even telling me that “anyone can get into law school. It’s not that big of a deal.” While I was in law school, he was less than supportive and eventually broke off our engagement because he “[didn't] want to marry a lawyer… he wanted someone who is just going to be a wife.” Mind you, we lived together and I was still waking up an hour early before him fixing breakfast, making his lunch, and still cooking dinner when I got home from school…. still cleaning the house on the weekends… still having sex 3 to 4 times a week…etc. I am not overweight, physically fit, and attractive. I have been told by many people that I am very funny. I read this article and I completely relate to it. After this relationship experience and a few other failed ones, I can’t help but feel this is true. Men genuinely do not want women who are smart and successful.

  57. Felix on September 11th, 2010 2:10 pm

    Sophie, if only one man thought as highly of you as you do, you would be married to him by now.

    You have to loosen up, and stop being so stuck on yourself. Your 34, not exactly red hot anymore.

    Now pull your pants down and bend over!

  58. ETHM on September 11th, 2010 6:06 pm

    I would’ve picked Choice B if it wasn’t for the “BigLaw” part. From what I’ve seen, 120 hour workweeks aren’t great for relationships.

  59. Anton on September 11th, 2010 10:49 pm

    I am not from America, but would gladly take a female lawyer. They would appreciate my member.

  60. BL1Y on September 12th, 2010 9:31 am

    If you really think that men are intimidated by successful, intelligent, put-together women, then you obviously have a pretty low opinion of men in general, and no doubt that comes out when you interact with them. What sort of man wants to be with a woman like that?

  61. Sophie on September 12th, 2010 3:18 pm

    Ok… you all totally missed the point of me saying those things about my relationship. My point in saying them was not to exalt myself in any way. My point was to show that I was taking care of my relationship and my man. I am a very down to earth person. I do a lot of volunteer work with special needs children in my spare time and I play in a soccer league. I find it funny how you can all say that there is not one man on the face of this earth that would prefer someone not as successful in their career to marry. Did none of you read that he actually said, “I don’t want to marry a lawyer…. I want someone who is going to be just a wife.” How do you explain that one if everything else in the relationship was going well? Just curious.

  62. Gordon on September 12th, 2010 4:08 pm

    @Sophie – I think there are probably several factors at work:

    1) The traditional family model has been the man as breadwinner and the woman as homemaker. A person raised with that model will be more likely to be not just emotionally invested in their role — it can become part of their identity, particularly with a high-achievement person. Thus, Mr. Six-Figure MBA likely saw himself as being very successful in his role in life, and he likely saw your desire to become a lawyer as a threat to that success as you would eventually eclipse him in terms of earning power and professional standing.

    2) There has been a very real misandrist gestalt in our culture for the last decade or two now, where men are regarded as ancillary, even superfluous (at best) to the mother-child “family.” Family law strongly enforces the “father as walking wallet” school of thought. Popular entertainment generally portrays the woman as the real adult in the family, with the man as overgrown adolescent. It shouldn’t be surprising that many men, seeing this, say “no thanks!” and seek a more traditional relationship structure.

    3) Our society places far too much value on one’s earning power. This can infect relationships, particularly when the earning power is non-traditionally distributed. Family, friends, colleagues, all tend to inject this value-judgment into their interaction with the couple — often without being aware that they do it. This puts an extra burden on the relationship as well.

    4) Many people have a hard time shifting mental gears between work and home life. Fairly or not, lawyers have a “reputation” that isn’t particularly flattering and can easily be perceived as yet another obstacle to a happy relationship; most people don’t enter relationships to find a sparring partner. Again, that may not be fair, but it’s likely a factor.

    So, the deck seems to be stacked. That doesn’t mean you can’t win the game and find a good man with whom to share life in a healthy, loving relationship. It just means it’s tougher.

    Gordon.

  63. Claire on September 12th, 2010 8:31 pm

    I have to agree with Gordon. More traditional men prefer more traditional roles. If your ex fiancee was the type of man that grew up with the traditional mother is the keeper of the home and father is the breadwinner role then it doesn’t matter how great or how much of a catch the woman is. He was always looking for a woman to fill a traditional role. Don’t be upset with him. It’s just his preference. Men carry a lot of burden. I am not a lawyer but I was promoted in my job last year and my husband’s friends are constantly making fun of him because my salary is significantly more. It’s just a matter of how he prefers to deal with it. Like Gordon says, it’s not completely hopeless. It will just be a little harder to find.

  64. Middle of the Road on September 12th, 2010 10:29 pm

    There sure are a bunch of wacked out folks commenting on this board – fortunately, reality is somewhere between the two camps. First, the bias against high-acheivment females, especially female lawyers, is a reality. I’m a type-A female lawyer and when me and my female lawyer freinds want to have a really good time, we lie about our careers just like the boys do. There are hundreds of guys out there who truly believe I am a nurse and love that perception of me. The bias is not becuase these men are dumb or under-acheivers though – indeed its because they are over-acheivers and they’re smart and they know that as a “nurse,” the odds of my being emotionally and socially supportive of them and their career and their climb are a lot higher. It makes good sense to me. Which gets to point number two: no over-acheiever, type-A type guy owes me his attention or desires – or any other professional over-acheiver woman. Bottom line. And its just rude rubbish to go around acusing men of being insecure loser types because they’re over-acheiver types – just like you are. Grow up.

    There was a poem that was circulated a few years back called “I Want a Wife” – anybody that read it understands my point – even if they don’t agree with it…..

  65. Frank on September 13th, 2010 7:04 am

    I don’t know where I fall. I am a lawyer, and couldn’t care less if my wife earns more than me. But I want a wife who will not give me a hard time when I come home, whining to do this, to take her to this restaurant or that show, and do that for her, and why haven’t I done this, and why do I want to sit and watch football or just plain out relax for a change? Why can’t there be a wife who can both be hard working during the week, earn money, then just leave me the F*** alone to do what I want to do on weekends. If I want to do something with her, fine, but otherwise, shut the #### up!!!

    It would be a plus if she would be a tom-boy, watching TV with me and know something about sports, and I would also enjoy some sex all weekend, that would be fine. She could then cook dinner (f*** getting dressed up to go out to eat), and I would clean the dishes up.

    If there is a woman out there that fits the bill, send me your name.

    Otherwise, stop your friggin whining. If you’re not married, that is because there are a lot of men just like me.

  66. MM on September 13th, 2010 11:36 am

    I’m a 30 year old waitress with a MA in philosophy. I chose to leave a successful career as a fundraiser to pursue my ultimate goal of being a writer.

    The restaurant I work in is in the bottom of a 45 story skyscraper, several floors of which are rented by a prominent law firm. Ergo, many a day and night I wait on lawyers – biglaw, ivy league men and women. They are pretty harmless douchebags, most of the time. Yes, they are overconfident in their debating skills. Yes, they drink a ton. Yes, they feel superior to me. I find their dismissal mostly irrelevant – we have different standards and identifiers of success. But to hear you lay out someone’s careers as a direct correlation to their worth here is irritating to me.

    This year, I was hired to be the head writer and executive producer for a cartoon I created. Being a comedic writer, I’m not unused to the pitfalls, and pluses, of working in a male dominated field as a beautiful woman.

    But, I also decided to continue waiting tables on the side because the cash is good and I want to pay off my student loans quickly. And, honestly, both the kindness and disregard you can receive as a server is really stunning and quite fascinating, really. It gives me great material.

    My boyfriend is going for his Ph.D in philosophy at a top 10 school. If you met us, Legal Tease, you might very well assess that he was dating down in achievement and intelligence by dating a waitress. But, you wouldn’t know that we stared dating years ago when I was earning high 5 figures while he was a struggling freelancer or that I’m an artist respected in some communities even if my rewards aren’t financial.

    It takes a lot of courage for me to continue on this path of a writer because of the financial stress, the health insurance, the poverty always biting at your heels. I do it out of love for the work. I still claim to be a professional woman, even if you don’t consider me as such because I’m not in Prada.

    Certainly, there are many ugly truths behind why people do or don’t choose a mate. Also, there can be small good truths. Your status as an observer with an acerbic wit doesn’t give you final access to those reasons.

    Thank you to the men and women who are expressing themselves in a kind, reasonable way. Gordon, you make salient points and to whomever highlighted the distinction between reason and rationalization, thank you.

  67. Mary Kate on September 13th, 2010 5:39 pm

    I’m a lady with a law degree and I never had trouble dating. I can only think of one guy who ever got weird when I told him what I did. I don’t think I’d be interested in a guy who was that scared of my degree, because honestly that’s pathetic.

  68. Lindsay on September 13th, 2010 7:14 pm

    @MM: I think you are a “creative” writer — in reality a lawyer douchebag yourself.

    First of all, only a douchebag lawyer uses the word ERGO. I never use it and know only douchebag lawyers do.

    Second, your use of a double negative “not unused to the pifalls”… belies your claim to be a waitress….

    “I’m not unused to the pitfalls, and pluses, of working in a male dominated field as a beautiful woman…” WTF?

    Finally, if you really were a beautiful woman, the douchebag lawyers would be all over you, and you wouldn’t have the time or the inclination to be posting on this website.

    No, you are more than likely an unattractive douchebag lawyer (probably male) with nothing better to do.

  69. The Messenger on September 13th, 2010 7:20 pm

    I’m not a lawyer. I’ve been married for almost 11 years. I married a man 6 years older than me, who had been dumped repeatedly by attractive, upwardly mobile, career-oriented girls who thought he was a “slacker” because he went straight from liberal-arts bachelor’s degree to liberal arts master’s degree with no real “career plan.” He now makes six figures and has been able to support me and our son after I took time off (first as a SAHM, then as a part-timer) after our son was born.
    - Ancient Anthropologist has it right. Men these days are not interested in women who are putting off having children until the timing is right for their career, having to frantically undergo fertility treatment at the last minute, then dumping the kid in daycare at 8 weeks old and getting back on the career track. My husband has been told, repeatedly, by many men (including my best friend’s husband) that he is “really lucky” to have a wife who would rather be home with his kid than out in the career world. I pick our son up at 3:30 from preschool, come home, make dinner and have energy to still have nookie a few times a week. Compared to many of my friends we have a golden marriage. I have several girlfriends who decided to have two kids two years apart, get on the career fastrack, buy a gigantic house and not hire any help, and wonder why they’re so exhausted and pissed off all the time. They never have sex with their husbands. They have no time and no energy! And the thing is, they’ve done it to themselves. The husbands would be happier with less money and a less “successful” wife if the household was happier. We cannot really have it all, ladies, no matter what we were told in growing up.
    - A couple of studies have been done on this. But I read an article not too long ago that talked about how much men dislike women who show up for dates straight from work, still dressed in a suit, and then treat the conversation like a competitive debate. Men dislike feeling like they are a jousting post, the same way women dislike it. Men like women who are warm and nurturing and not going to constantly compete with them. There are some women who are so into the “I must prove myself” mode that they can’t turn it off, even on dates. Those ladies should get used to being single.
    - Once a woman hits 34 and she’s still not married, she’s done. For men it’s 40 (I don’t care how handsome and successful you are, unmarried at 40 = toxic, unfixable flaws. The best hope for these guys is to get rich enough to afford a trophy wife, and then afford the subsequent support bills that will come along after trophy wife dumps them). Women between 26 and 32 who really want to get married need to make finding a husband a higher priority than their career. Otherwise, forget it. As it is, it’s going to be an uphill battle because the really good ones – like my husband – got nabbed in college and they’re not available. My advice – look at divorced guys, single fathers and widowers. Say what you want about baggage but they were a good enough bet to someone that the deal got closed. I’d be much more suspicious of the 35-year-old who’s never been married than I would be of a 35-year-old with a short-lived early marriage, or a kid from a live-in relationship. Any 34-year-old single woman – lawyer or not – who thinks she is not going to have to settle is kidding herself. Either settle for a guy who isn’t what you thought you’d end up with, or settle for being single. Your choice. P.S., some of those “reject” guys are actually legitimately good guys and may not have the same hangups that another high-powered arrogant lawyer will have.
    The biggest problem with female lawyers is that most of them have convinced themselves their ambition and career focus is an asset. It is not. Most men could give a crap about that. They want someone who is kind, nurturing, and supportive, who will be there for them. Ditch the “I’m so great, I have a law degree from X” schtick and talk about who you really are. That’s going to attract a lot more decent guys than aggressive career posturing.

  70. Katy on September 13th, 2010 9:53 pm

    @Messenger: Wow. That is a lot of commentary there; almost thinking that’s…venting? It’s one thing to point out the author’s faulty thinking or perception but quite another to condemn all single people over 30-something to a life of non-marital bliss just because various factors in life worked out to the current situation. Dating and relationships are not actuarial tables. They’re about dynamics and interracting, and what each person finds desirable. Personally, I was a chocolate mess in my peak engagement years of college and some years thereafter. Not surprised my relationships didn’t work out. I have no problems with meeting/dating divorced guys because those are the vast majority of available men my age. I also realize I will not bear children (probably) but that’s OK. I’m just doing my best to be nice, have fun and enjoy my life, and hopefully look cute while doing it.

  71. Mike Triforce on September 13th, 2010 10:31 pm

    You know what the difference between a female lawyer and a whore?

    A whore charges extra for anal

  72. Mike Triforce on September 13th, 2010 10:44 pm

    You know what the difference between my girlfriend and a whore is?

    …seriously, I’m asking

  73. Anton on September 14th, 2010 5:51 am

    @Mike Triforce– I can tell you.

    Whores at least try to keep clean down there.

    Your GF: Stanky!

    I recommend you stop eating so much onions, garlic and asparagus before plugging her.

    And tell her there is nothing wrong with that douchenozzle.

  74. Pfft on September 14th, 2010 3:20 pm

    Obvious answer – Graphic designer doesn’t want to feel inferior to lawyer chick making double or triple what he makes. Yes, it’s a double standard, but most guys don’t want to date girls with much better careers. Better is okay, but once the disparity gap increases to more than 50% more, forget it. There are some guys that genuinely dont care, and appreciate the fact that she can make all the money they need while he works as a special needs teacher, but for guys that are career hungry, forget it. Also look out for free-loading deadbeats that just want you to pay the cable bill and bankroll their Xbox habit.

    More thoughtful answer – People that are not lawyers do not like, are afraid of, or are not interested in lawyers. I think this story would have been completely different, for example, if the female associate had been a surgeon or a dentist. Again, people that are not lawyers aren’t interested in typical lawyer conversations and lawyer bullshit. I was an engineer for years before i went to law schools. I hated lawyers, i still hate (most of them) today. Generally, the profession is full of self-riteous jackasses that think having a JD makes you a genius. Yes, there are lots of genius lawyers out there, but lets not forget that any moron with a bachelors degree in basket weaving from ITT tech, $90 grand, and 3 or 4 years to kill can get a law degree.

    Alternate answer – she’s a bitch.

  75. Daniel on September 15th, 2010 11:02 am

    Oy. If I hear this bogus rationale – “men are intimidated by successful women” – one more time, i’m going to vomit.

    Newsflash: No, it’s not that you’re “successful.” It’s that you’re so wrapped up in this cliched idea of “success” that you fail to realize that attractiveness has very little to do with what you do for a living.

    No one cares how much money you make. No one cares if you are ambitious, or where you graduated in your class. And the more you care about it, the less attractive you are, IMO.

    I’m what others would describe as a successful attorney, easy on the eyes, and I for the most part have my pick. And when i’ve dated female attorneys in the past, i’ve been struck by one common theme: wow, she’s not very interesting. She cares about things that I care about at work, not at home. Yes, the law inculcates the idea that she be shrewd, analytical, and deductive; yet, she has lot that sense of wonder and creativity that makes people interesting & fun. So, no thanks.

    “Intimidated by my success” … please.

  76. Reggie on September 17th, 2010 6:14 pm

    I’m a law student and, ya know, regardless of gender, the whole “God’s gift” arrogance is an archetype of some lawyers or aspiring lawyers not by virtue of them being lawyer but because the practice of law attract certain personality type.

    However, that doesn’t mean that it’s the only personality type that exists in the field. Mainly because the field is more diverse than TV and stereotypes would have you believe. Big law is not that common. It’s just what everyone talks about, and yeah, those who make it in are fiercely competitive people because they had to be in order to get there.

    I am a female, but forget gender, I get more offended by the fact people think so little of an entire broad profession when they’re only looking at a slice of it. In addition to government jobs, there are public interest organizations and advocacy groups, and mom and pop firms that make up a big part of most graduating classes.

    That aside, the biggest complaint I’m hearing is the inability to leave work at work. I’ll concede bringing work home tolls the death knell of any relationship no matter what the field.

  77. javaridge on September 18th, 2010 9:50 pm

    “For the rest of you guys, though, what are you so afraid of? That you won’t be able to take care of us? That you’ll be emasculated? That we’ll think you’re a loser?”

    In the real world my girlfriend and I don’t judge each other based on salary and prestige. I can appreciate what she does and she can appreciate what I do and realize that people get paid different amounts for working in different areas regardless of our relative skill in each field.

    This almost reveals the problem. You’re using standard definitions of success and achievement to explain how you’re so great when no one really gives a fuck. I hate the guys who do this in law school too. That’s why I never talked to anyone in the entire place.

  78. calmdown on September 19th, 2010 1:29 pm

    Keep the “get it done” work attitude in the office, where it belongs. You practice law mainly to earn a living. Be truly appreciative that you have the wits to earn a surplus in your line of work.

    Obviously you’re identifying with your profession too deeply to the unfortunate distaste of dating partners. Your strong association of being a “got-it-all-together-lawyer” with the reason you’re having issues with men makes this apparent.

    Your dating partners likely don’t really care that you are a “lawyer”. They are looking at you, your personality, your attitude about yourself.

    So don’t be a lawyer. Be an approachable, intelligent, smart, and most importantly, warm person who happens to practice law. Broaden your perception to realize your true self. Practice being more forgiving and you’ll likely see changes in your dating life.

  79. Larry on September 19th, 2010 5:43 pm

    What’s with all the closet psychologist douchebags preening on this website. It’s simple.

    Women lawyers aren’t that hot and shouldn’t think they are.

    By the same token, men lawyers should stop thinking they’re as hot as Jimmy Schmitz; they’re more like George Costanza from Steinfeld. Women do not want to see a guy like that bouncing up and down on them, even if they do have a bank account.

    Those men who have girlfriends; stick with them, b/c there is no guarantee another woman will be excited if you look like Costanza.

  80. Fake Name on September 25th, 2010 1:53 am

    You need to check out roissy on why men do not date women lawyers

  81. Harry on September 25th, 2010 6:14 am

    I’ll date the women lawyers, subject to the provisio that they are attractive and are as much into sex as I am.

  82. womanlawyer on September 30th, 2010 1:46 am

    Wow. I am a female lawyer working in public interest law. I am 26, have never had a problem getting a date before or during law school and am now engaged with a wedding planned for the spring. I honestly have no idea what you all are talking about. Dating is difficult for everyone sometimes, including lawyers. Many of these comments seem ridiculously sexist. I have many female lawyer friends that have found love and some that haven’t. I imagine that this is the case for women (and men) in ever profession.

    People here are generalizing WAY too much. Relax people.

  83. potatocubed on October 14th, 2010 7:12 am

    The reason woman B in that example is undateable is because she clearly doesn’t have -time- for a relationship. I mean… two jobs, both of which are hugely time-demanding? Plus she’s going to want time to herself, time to hang out with her friends, go to the gym, etc. Where does a man fit into this?

  84. Mulligan on October 15th, 2010 8:49 pm

    I suspect at this late date, nobody will read this comment other than the (esteemed) owner of this blog, but let me offer a somewhat different perspective. There is more than a grain of truth to the stereotype of the powerful male who seeks out a dominatrix. What most of the surprisingly misogynistic posters fail to grasp is that the same often holds true for powerful professional women at home.

    What you see at the office is not necessarily what you get at home.

    My wife and I have been happily married for seven years. She is one of the most ferocious, scorched earth litigators I’ve ever encountered. But at home she wants to experience her softer, submissive side. On my part, I get all of the benefits of a super-smart lady combined with a relaxed, loving woman who wants to please me.

    I don’t think she’s the only one out there, either. I was only interested in dating extremely intelligent and accomplished women. Although very few had any experience with BDSM, every one of my partners ended up embracing it. In general, I suspect that introducing a D/s dynamic allowed them to bring a balance into their lives that had been missing.

    Obviously, this approach won’t work if it doesn’t float your boat, but if it does, it still must be combined with everything else that accompanies a successful relationship. Every couple is different, but in my experience two factors are critical. Make a woman feel secure and valued, and she will walk through fire for you and then take you to bed.

    Good luck to all of you.

  85. Kurt on October 18th, 2010 1:40 am

    I am a lawyer myself and in my own experience a lot of single female lawyers, especially those at big firms, tend to be very self-absorbed and/or controlling. Most guys want a woman who is smart and has her life in order. However, a lot of female lawyers have a tendency to drone on and on and on about themselves and no guy wants a woman who is that egotistical. Men also want a woman who is available, not one who is working most of the time.

  86. Kurt on October 18th, 2010 1:56 am

    The Messenger, I have to disagree with part of your post. I live in a big city and I know lots of professionally successful guys 35 or older who are not yet married and they don’t all have undesirable qualities. These guys worked hard through college and grad school/law school/medical school and then worked long hours establishing their careers to become successful. It’s not as though they were out dating tons of women during this time. These would probably be good marriage candidates now. I fail to see why a divorced man who probably already has children would be a preferred marriage partner versus a 35+ year old single man who has an established career. By the way, it probably used to be the case 20+ years ago that being a lawyer actually helped men attract women, but that doesn’t seem to be the case anymore.

    However, the reverse is definitely not true among women. Women are generally the most attractive between the ages of maybe 25 and 30 and if they want to get married they need to make this a focus at that age. The problem is that women who go straight from college to law school and then work at big law firms waste their prime marriageable years slaving away for their clients. By the time they lateral to smaller firms or go in-house or take other jobs that are less stressful and less time-intensive, a lot of those women don’t even know what men really want and don’t have a clue as to how to act feminine.

  87. sea on October 28th, 2010 1:58 am

    happiness is
    a butterfly which when pursued
    is aalways just beyond your grasp
    but which if you will sit down quietly may alight upon you
    sea

  88. Anonymous on October 28th, 2010 10:04 pm

    Nothing worse then a stanky old crotch to wake u up in the middle of the night looking for a lickin’

  89. Anonymous on November 4th, 2010 4:11 pm

    really, you think men would choose A. I don’t think that is the case at all, but I also happen to be a law student.
    If the women described in scenario B actually exists, I would be happy to meet her.

  90. dasz on November 4th, 2010 9:52 pm

    Haha, the title of this article snagged my attention right away! There is definitely some truth to it. Granted, I’m still a law student, but even so, it seems that once a guy finds out I’m a “baby lawyer” it’s a total turn-off for him! To counteract this, I’ve developed some clever coping mechanisms:

    1: resort to self-deprecation as soon as possible… “well, yeah, I’m in law school, but deep down, I’m a complete idiot, I swear!!”
    2: since actions speak louder than words, SHOW them that I’m not a threat to their delicate masculine sense of pride and male superiority by doing something stupid. As an additional bonus, I typically can accomplish this without any advanced planning. Especially if I have to wear high heels or read a map.
    3: date an older man who either a) is confident enough in himself that he isn’t threatened by my dazzling brilliance OR b) doesn’t really give a damn how intelligent I think I am, so long as I look good on his arm.
    … I like to convince myself it’s the former. :)

  91. Snively Whiplash on November 7th, 2010 5:25 am

    @Kurt

    I would agree except I would say they are probably most attractive between the age of 14 and 17. I could not believe how many girls who started college gorgeous were overweight by their third year. The smart ones knew how to adjust and keep it under control, but many of them just let themselves go. A teenage girl in this culture is not even remotely prepared to be married, but that used to be the norm.

  92. Werner on November 8th, 2010 6:48 am

    Snively, you have to be careful about the young-uns. No dipping your wick in any girl less than 18 years old. If they are hot at 18, you are right they can go down hill, so all the other guy was saying is to wait to make sure.

    I think women between 22 and 27 are the best, but:

    —they haven’t started to turn (like an overripe banana) and

    – haven’t been f***ed so many times that their vajay-jay’s are as big as a cathedral and

    –aren’t so interested in getting married so that they will “forget” to take the pill (like they do when they are over 30).

    I say go for this age group. Once their over 30, youre talking about old, spoiled goods.

  93. Snively Whiplash on November 8th, 2010 9:30 pm

    Agreed Werner. I just think lawyer girls are often a better than average group just because they understand that looks for them = $$$$ (whether it is making senior associate or trying to snag a partner), so they try a little harder. Or maybe they are just better at figuring out that they are going to have to try harder as they get older.

  94. Bill on November 11th, 2010 10:13 pm

    The other thing you have to watch out for is stankyness below the belt. While women lawyers under 30 can be afflicted by this condition (often described as crotch rot) you can be certain that many more of those women lawyers over 30 have stankyness that must be dealt with, particularly as more and more women lawyers demand that men go down on them as a precondition to our getting a second round of sex.

  95. Anon on February 2nd, 2011 11:39 pm

    Wow. You nailed my feelings exactly. Now if only people would believe me….

  96. Vin on February 7th, 2011 7:26 am

    What happened to the broads that post here? Did they get old, or did they finally find guys willing to nail them on a daily basis?

    I hope it’s the latter. These dames deserve something better than slaving over a pile of documents. They would be much happier at home, raising some kids, than having to put up with the crap we do for a few dinero.

  97. Revati McNamara on March 9th, 2011 2:44 am

    It seems simple enough, people marry for love and the rest falls into place. Is that too idealistic?

    male/female female/female male/male self-love–>Love All! <3

    What boundaries are you willing to blur?

    We've dealt with them all before…reruns, history, call it what you will. It's not rocket science, however sacred that secular is.

  98. Law.Doll on May 10th, 2011 9:03 pm

    Im a female law student and ex-model (don’t mean to sound big headed but its true that we exist and just to put it out there not all female lawyers are ugly or boring)…I’m not big headed or argumentative, only in the moots :) I can understand where everyone is coming from on this blog but I think there is quite a bit of stereotyping going on here. Point is, I remember to still be a down to earth sweet girl when it comes to the guy I am dating, to always be aware not to use my aggression or confrontation ever with him…I believe that all professional women need to remember that just because they are professional, educated or bring in lots of dough, they don’t need to prove themselves constantly. I personally like to cook and pamper the guy I am seeing because he’s lovely and also “A+” grade professional guy and it’s like when together, we are just two people who like spending time together, our career/status goes out the window and we never discuss that…we spend time together because there is mutual respect and mutual affection. My point is, nomatter how powerful you become, when it comes to relationships it shouldnt be anything else but chemistry and also sharing the same goals in life, so you can live happily together.

  99. Econ.Ken on May 24th, 2011 2:18 pm

    Law Doll, what to go on a date? :-)

  100. joe on June 18th, 2011 2:40 pm

    ok all you single female lawyers…here i am… not intimidated in the least…i am a high school dropout…still manage to earn a decent living…live in a gated community with my 2 kids…would you consider dating a guy like me?

  101. Cheryl on August 9th, 2011 9:20 pm

    Having a law degree and a legal career for those of us in our 40s and 50s who are re-entering the dating market is still no selling point, and in many cases, a deterrent. The same guys who were intimidated by the fun, charming, attractive 28 year old lawyer, are still intimidated by the 50 year old one. I beg to differ with the author, though. We do have our shit together, more than most, anyway. No body’s life is perfect – at 50 you accept that and you either choose bitter or ‘who cares what other people think, I’m going to have fun’. Give me fun every time. It’s been proven – men want women who are playful, youthful and sensual. Educated women know how to be those things. A man of quality will also want the brains – so weed out the horndogs, and let them receive their just desserts with the bimbos. Work to find the quality man – he’ll appreciate you, and you’ll be glad for his companionship. I hope you’ll find this to be the most valuable free advice you’ve ever received.

  102. lawgirl12 on October 11th, 2011 1:53 pm

    I am a 27 year old female third year law student who has been pushed my entire life to achieve independence, career success, and then afterward, told to find someone who matches on both of those fronts. I’ve always been told I’m attractive–hot even, until super recently always had a dancer body, love to go out and drink–although I tend to drink with guys and dislike most girls, yet am still girly in personality. I’ve always had success finding guys to date–generally other lawyers, even though many of those relationships haven’t worked out as one would hope…sometimes because of me, sometimes b/c of the guy, and sometimes due to both of us. A couple of weeks ago, I broke up with the first non-lawyer, non-law student guy I have dated in six years. He was a bartender/manager at a tiny local bar, four years older than me, with no sense of direction, no future goals, plans, or ambitions–other than to be happy. I’m assuming due to my parents, and due to the environment in which I’ve been educated, I’ve turned out not remotely domestic or maternal. And that is who I am. The bf I broke up w/ coincidentally, was the type to make me gourmet dinners, take care of the house, etc–but we couldn’t discuss political/societal/academic issues. My world centered around questions such as how to save a woman’s house from foreclosure or how to bring an equal rights case against the local police for selective enforcement while his focused on how to book band A or band B for a particular night at the bar–not that he didn’t care about social issues, but they just didn’t hit close to home in his day to day life. But he made me happy and made me laugh. I think we as female lawyers or lawyers to be, have been so trained not to accept guys who provide a balance to our lives as being inferior or lesser than our “high intellect” deserves. But you know what? Very few guys in our position would agree. I have been half of a “power couple” in pretty much every relationship until this one, and the most serious ones have ended miserably. Lawyers (not just female ones) are too simply trained to logically take all facts and make an objective decision. When it comes to relationships or marriage, objectiveness just isn’t what makes someone happy. I’ve already been realizing what a mistake I’ve made in terms of my own relationship that I ended for what I will happily admit are very shallow reasons (what he does, lack of vision, and lack of education). After reading the response posts to this blog, I even more so realize how lucky I was (and what a mistake I’ve made). While two high power jobs may work for some people–for many people that I know even–it just isn’t for everyone. Due to the way I’ve learned to assess potential mates, I have looked for education and intellect and matching income potential, but rarely for fathering skills. I think the problem for female lawyers is our view on who our ideal partner is, and I think we have it all wrong. I’m not saying there aren’t plenty of women who will and do end up w/ similarly situated men partners. I’m just saying it’s not the end all, and that not doing so doesn’t constitute failure. We law girls just need to reshape the way we look for and at guys–and decide if we want a co-worker or a spouse. I’m not saying the two are mutually exclusive in all cases, but they may be in some.

  103. gnome on December 1st, 2011 7:12 am

    I notice women are either lawyers or idiots with no health insurance. Maybe you’re a bitch?

  104. Mike on January 5th, 2012 5:26 am

    Sounds like the good stuff is indeed intimidating (top-achieving star athelete prom queen partner-track 1%ers), while the resulting neuroses are complete disqualifiers, rather than normal, relatable human foibles. All in all, it’s a dead-lock explanation for why people go for the mostly-average rather than the high-octane, high-irregularity example of two equally-hot 28-year-olds.

  105. Shalom Beck on April 18th, 2012 4:05 am

    A woman whose income is adequate to maintain her standard of living cannot committ to a marriage.
    So marry down, boys, if you want to marry for keeps.

  106. L on May 1st, 2012 2:51 am

    To get where we’ve gotten, we have developed a certain hardness for sure. Independence cuts both ways. And yes, unlike men, we typically refuse or frankly can’t get used to “dating down.” Attracted to assertive driven power etc. That’s why I’ve told men I would prefer if they can afford for me to stay home to play housewife. Then I can feel feminine (and stay attracted) and he, not emasculated. Laws of attraction.

  107. Charles on November 28th, 2012 6:43 pm

    Only an insecure man is afraid of a successful Barbie Doll Goddess with a brain. To me, if the girl was a tall, curvaceous (like those delicious Brazilian babes) and who was affluent, smart humorous and adorable, the problem is solved. Some guys suffer from “I need to bed the damsel in distress” or just happen to be the Ted Danson (Cheers) types who want to date lesser women. If a GODDESS wants you then make her yours. My thing is that I just hope she is a freak in bed and with no hang ups (ie. that she speaks latin and greek…and I am not talking languages here…if you get my drift…yeah, I want a rascal in bed). It is all about biology, to me, tall, attractive, exotically shapely,sexy, smart and humorous will wind my clock anyday!

  108. Jc on February 2nd, 2013 6:49 am

    I am a successful and athletic 6 figure earning professional man with a graduate degree, who works in commercial banking. I have a fair amount of contact with lawyers, male and female, CFOs, and CEOs. With that in mind, I am not at all intimidated by other ‘successful’ people, women or men. What I am quite turned off by though are ‘successful’ ‘career’ women whose egos have swollen. Primarily, over-inflated egos are a turn-off in a professional sense, though when considering whether I want to date a woman, her having an over-inflated ego is a deal killer. I enjoy competing with my buddies in sports. If I am looking for a competitor, I’ll go work out at the gym with my buddies or compete with them in some sort of sports competition. I’m not looking for a competitor in a wife. What I am looking for in a wife is a person who can ‘put humpty dumpty back together again’ after a tough bout at work, or someone who can sooth my sore muscles after a strenuous workout, or someone who will bandage up my future kids and tell them their owwie will get better after they fall of their bike or have some other small accident. I want a nurturing and supportive partner, not a competitor. I’ve gone out with a lawyer, a doctor, a veterinarian, and a college professor, as well as several elementary school teachers. I’ll take the humble and caring elementary school teacher over an argumentative female lawyer 9 times out of 10. The teachers have generally tended to be much more caring, which is what I am really looking for. A woman’s paycheck or status don’t mean a thing to me; I already have ‘status’ and a fat paycheck.

  109. Jc on February 2nd, 2013 7:00 am

    …oh yeah, and I could care less about my so-called ‘status’. I was just as good a guy before I had my degrees and fancy job titles and was broke as I am now that I have all of the fancy titles and am in a better financial position. The only thing that really matters is whether a person works hard and treats people (including themselves) with respect. And as for the admin at the front desk who has had three or four jobs in the last three years- Try doing your job without her and you’ll realize she is equally as important as everyone else in the company or firm. The only difference between the admin and the lawyer is that the admin either places less value on career than the lawyer, or she didn’t have the same opportunity to get the law degree as the lawyer. Everyone has value.

  110. Anonymous on May 19th, 2013 9:33 am

    Huh. I actually was researching on the internet whether female lawyers ran into dating difficulties.

    And I went looking because of MY personal biases. While I am happily married, I hypothetically thought about whom I would date. And lawyers would not be one of them…and it all comes down to the marriage culture of today.

    A wife is inside your life. She knows your secrets, how you think, how you feel. She knows your vulnerabilities.

    A wife LAWYER….that is a fiscal and emotional raping that I would NOT risk. And frankly, with the stereotype of high maintainance and demanding nature that lawyers fairly or unfairly have…welll….there are a LOT of girls to choose from. Cutting them out means lessening my odds VERY slightly but somewhat protecting myself.

    Divorces these days are nightmareish enough for men. They are guilty and fiscally raped until proven…well…broke. And even then Judges, who WERE lawyers, try to squeeze the turnip some more.

    Letting a snake into your bosom…not smart.

    Nope, no bad experiences with lawyers. Never had a divorce. Never even been to court. Just looking at things in what I think is a rational way.

  111. Anonymous on May 19th, 2013 10:28 am

    Just to add one more thing about mating ‘science’.

    Having read “The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature”, it points out some facts which directly mirror a lot of the tenor of this post.

    Men go for fertility (youth and beauty). Women go for status as an indicator of ‘winning genes’. Doesn’t matter if you are a sparrow or an Associate.

    How does this fit into this article? The wonderful lady lawyers are jumping up and down saying “Pick me! Don’t you see I’m wonderful AND high status? Much better than that secretary.”

    Men don’t care about status. We don’t. Sure, there are outliers but for the most part, it’s barely a bonus for us. WOMEN thinks it matters a lot…and tries to use it as a selling point. We don’t care.

    The second thing is these women who ‘rationally’ say ‘well, it’s okay to date a low status guy’ somehow find that things never work out. Now, as stated before, men don’t care about status. They care about beauty and affability. MAYBE they are insecure. Totally possible.

    OR…maybe these women are unconsciously NOT satisfied with dating Lowly Pauly the Street Artist. That little faint flush of shame at the company parties. “Here I am, an accomplished litigator who does 80 hours of billables a week…and the best I can do personally is HIM…”

    It’s much more emotionally satisfying to put it all on the man even though it’s a cliche that men cheat down, women cheat up.

    But you associates would know better about the truth of that than I would.

  112. dingbat smartbot on June 16th, 2013 12:00 am

    Thank you all for the responses. I see why i have been tentative about marrying a lawyer lady or two. In my case ……. the neuroticity and my feeling that i was the last depature port..

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